It seems if you give an opinion about a concert and it doesn’t fit with the views of others then you are ignorant. I obviously just don’t get that some people like that “fucking screeching zombie” and as a result I’m ignorant. I better go off and complete that thesis in music theory before I ever decide I like or dislike something again.
Damien Mulley
Invisible people have invisible rights
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musicfascistsoftheworldunite tag. 🙂
No fair.
I didn’t agree with your assessment of MMOH but I would never call you ignorant because our views differ. Plus, you’re one of the most musically-clued in bloggers I know and we if we all had the same taste, life would be dull as puddle water. So there.
Damien
How you react to the word ‘ignorant’ depends on your etymological take on the word.
If you look at it from the dictionary definition of ignorant, meaning ‘unaware’ or ‘lacking in knowledge’ of a paticular subject, then the use of the word in this context is correct. In your piece about the concert, your description of MMOH as a “fucking screeching zombie”, which would suggest that you know little about her or her work. No problems there. Nobody can know everything about everything.
However, in Ireland, we have a unique definition of ‘ignorant’, meaning uncouth, rude or belligerent (leading to well-known acronyms like BIFFO – Big Ignorant Fucker From Offaly).
Reading the piece in Dublin Opinion, I would go with the former interpretation.
Well, I better qualify my ‘ignorance’ tag. It was based on sarcasm (and the lowest form of sarcasm) and was more a reaction to your unqualified view of Mary Margaret O’Hara as a ‘fucking screeching zombie’. Fine, don’t like her version of Halleluiah, but appreciate that she’s a fairly decent singer, although whose eccentric style is not to everyone’s taste before suggesting that she was some mad and wreckless non-sentient being with a nightmarish caterwauling croak that has somehow invaded a stage filled with popular music more well liked geniuses. Sinead is right though. It’d be a piss poor world if everyone listened to the same stuff, and much better that those who like their music and I know you do, disagree sometimes. Arguments, like music, should be delivered with passion. On another note Jim’s girlfriend (Jim wrote our original post on MMOH and the CSFFB gig) knows loads of music theory, has passed exams and everything. She hated MMOH on the night. She could see what MMOH was doing but hated the sound she was making.
I only noticed Gerry’s comment after I posted my own. The former interpretation is correct.
So it’s ignorant to criticise a musician unless you know their work quite well? that seems a bit odd. Should you have a good understanding of the genre, the artists contemporaries and their influences too? Or should you just have a decent understanding of every single artists and genre in the world; after all, how can you comment on a musician if you don’t know everything about music, right?
Please, are you telling me you’ve never listened to the radio, heard a song that made you feel ill and turn if off because it was rubbish? Was that an ignorant response on your part so?
Personal musical taste and the appreciation of music are different things. Perhaps it’s opinions published on blogs that is blurring that. A blog after all is a personal journal, a place where you have the right to express your preferences. When I wrote the piece I referred, rather glibly, to those ‘ignorant critics’.
A critic, you would imagine, has to have a well rounded knowledge of the subject that he or she is criticizing for their opinions to carry any weight. Damien does not pretend to be a music critic and as he expressed his opinion of MMOH in his personal blog they should be seen as a personal preference and not a comment on the quality of the Canadian singer’s performance or ability.
However, it was the vociferousness of the comment that drew the term ‘ignorant’. This was not only an expression of a personal preference but a judgement that MMOH was simply shit. If you don’t like something then all you have to say is you don’t like it. To pass judgment and say its bad you have to say why you think it’s bad and Damien didn’t do that.
However, it was the vociferousness of the comment that drew the term ‘ignorant’. This was not only an expression of a personal preference but a judgement that MMOH was simply shit. If you don’t like something then all you have to say is you don’t like it. To pass judgment and say its bad you have to say why you think it’s bad and Damien didn’t do that.
Sorry, but if I don’t like a type of music I’ll say so to whatever strength I choose… what difference does it make to anyone else if I say a song is really bad as opposed to really shit?
The problem occours when others start telling people what opinion they should have when it comes to certain music; for example if Damien was to say that “anyone who thinks this artist is good is a complete moron”.
Donagh, out of interest, would you have written the same defence for Westlife? Or would you just say that “well they are bad” so that’s different. It’s not really. Personally I hate Leonard Cohen, think he’s particularly miserable and would generally take the view that much like Shane McGowan, his songs are better served by being sung by other people, with some exceptions, such as Ronan Keating and Christy Moore’s appalling efforts at the Fairytale of New York.
In truth, the one person qualified to decide whether Damien Mulley thought Mary Margaret O’Hara was a screaming zombie or not is, in fact, Damien Mulley. That other people may not agree is natural, but implying his opinion doesn’t count because he is unqualified or ignorant in your view lessens your opinion because Damien, at least, is referring to music whereas you’re just making a personal attack.
The point is this: Mary Margaret O’Hara has fans. I really have no idea why. But like a lot of artists of her nature – ie very niche, very cult – the response of her fans to those who dare to question the brilliance is pretty predictable. “You don’t understand, you’re not qualified, you don’t know enough”. The truth is that’s not an adequate response. Significantly more people don’t think she’s brilliant than do think she’s brilliant. Live with it. I think she’s a caterwauler, but granted it’s ages since I’ve bothered to give her a listen. Life is too short and there is plenty of other music in the world which I do like.
damen – whether you’re right about mary margaret o’hara i’ll leave for others but if you want to really really really torure yourself, check out bono singing cohen’s hallelujah (mail me and i’ll send you an mp3 if you can’t find it). i suspect mmoh will sound like an angel in comparison.
Adam, fair point. My use of the term ‘ignorant critic’ was a glib remark which I had hoped would contain at least a small bit of irony. I am the last person to call anyone else ignorant. That’s the reality. I should have attached a smiley I guess to confirm that I wasn’t being serious. But I do think when you pronounce such a harsh judgment on an artist who is liked by a number of people that you should expect some flack back, even if it’s not deserved. It’s the cut and trust of this thing, isn’t it?
When it comes to the arts things inevitably get personal – there is no real objectivity and I think in the case with popular music that is especially so. I realise of course that to use the word ‘ignorant’ passes judgment on someone else mental facilities or probably more accurately on their inability or unwillingness to absorb what they are exposed to. That was not fair.
Teresa, to continue that point, I had no intention of attacking Damien personally, except to suggest that maybe the extreme view published on a public forum could have been offensive to those who actually enjoyed the performance.
I guess if I was surrounded by a bunch of Westlife fans and they heard me calling their music the aural equivalent of distemper-infected pig swill then I would expect that they would have one or two things to say about it. Music is cherished by fans. Those who don’t like a band or a style of music can usually manage to avoid listening to it. Because of the nature of the gig at the point MMOH’s performance was very hard to avoid and that was perhaps what precipitated Damien’s comment.
However, I do completely agree that everyone has the right to give out about music in the strongest terms possible and that it is not necessary to know their back catalogue in order to do so. In fact I would go further and say that you don’t have to even listen to a full song before getting on your blog and being downright rude about the artist in question.
Twenty Major does it all the time about Damien Rice and I would fight to protect Twenty’s right to do so. Even if Twenty decided to attack an artist that I’m precious about I would defend his right to do so. As long as it was funny.
Am I back tracking on my attempt to defend my use of the term ‘ignorant critic’? Absolutely. After all, my use of the term in the first place was just me having a go. And in that repect: mission accomplished.
Adam, fair point. My use of the term ‘ignorant critic’ was a glib remark which I had hoped would contain at least a small bit of irony. I am the last person to call anyone else ignorant.
Your blog post begs to differ.
That’s the reality. I should have attached a smiley I guess to confirm that I wasn’t being serious.
So why did you agree with Gerry’s definition of the word ignorant? I don’t mean to seem pushy, but if you think he’s ignorant, so be it… just be prepared to stand by it. If it was a joke that backfired, so be it, but at why imply that you said it because Damien “obviously” didn’t know what he was talking about?
But I do think when you pronounce such a harsh judgment on an artist who is liked by a number of people that you should expect some flack back, even if it’s not deserved. It’s the cut and trust of this thing, isn’t it?
No one should expect flack for expressing an opinion on art; you should expect people to disagree with you, but you shouldn’t have to expect personal insults.
When it comes to the arts things inevitably get personal – there is no real objectivity and I think in the case with popular music that is especially so.
I’d say art is where it is least likely to get personal. If it’s a political issue that may cost lives or livlihoods then you can expect people to get more passionate than normal; for example I read a piece in the Sindo on climate change that suggested it’s too late to do anything so we should sit back and enjoy the party… it was (hopefully) tongue in cheek, but if it wasn’t I’d happily call the person an idiot… at least people who usually disagree with the green agenda they claim it’s because they see climate change as a myth, they’re at least hiding their laziness/greed with a cause.
I realise of course that to use the word ‘ignorant’ passes judgment on someone else mental facilities or probably more accurately on their inability or unwillingness to absorb what they are exposed to. That was not fair.
But you were only joking, right?
Stop it, all of you. You’re being ignorant. Stop being ignorant.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=es8sX4L2thk
I will try to say this without sounding like Michael Jackson. If my original use of the term ‘ignorant critic’ was a ‘personal insult’ I wholeheartedly apologise.
But you were only joking, right?
I think John Kerry is better at telling jokes than me.
Bloody Hell! It says a lot when Twenty Major is the one calling for people to calm down!
[…] My use of the phrase ‘ignorant critic’ in the November Spawned Mary piece has generated a good deal of comment over the last two days. Firstly when Damien reacted to it by saying that “if you give an opinion about a concert and it doesn’t fit with the views of others then you are ignorantâ€?. And then secondly when Sinead Gleeson chipped in to argue that “perhaps [Damien] didn’t know much about her music, her distinct singing style, but does it warrant such a loaded, dismissive word as ignorant?â€? […]
Dublin Opinion has posted a recording of Mary Margaret O’Hara and Gavin Friday at the point depot. Their version of Hallelujah shits turds like your momma.
http://dublinopinion.com/2006/11/11/gavin-and-mmoh-at-the-point/
I found this conversation by chance while trying to explore my own musical ignorance (Elgar – the English don;t understand music but they love the sund it makes). I am to old to hurl expletives around in cyberspace – for risk among other things of causing collateral damage. So what do I do with the rather intense feelings – one the one hand of joy. love and gratitude at some music (sounds) and venomous loathing to the point that I want a certain sound-maker to be hung drawn and quartered. To give a recent example of the former feelings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC4_rwbZ2GU
and the latter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shy4ZZ1CUk0
Because I suspect this is my problem and not the problem of the sound-makers (music in the first case and noise pollution in the latter – sorry sorry sorry sorry…) I just get depressed, while publicly aspiring to support and desire diversity, at the thought that there are human beings out there who can sit through the second interpretation of Handel’s statement of faith and not feel nauseated. I am a feeble atheist. It’s not other’s faith that gives me the collywobbles, far from it, but their taste in sound. Happy Christmas 2007