It seems DownloadMusic.ie will get sued into non-existence if they don’t pay IMRO a license fee for people to be able to download music from their site. No matter if they are already dealing direct with the artist or not. It seems once you are in IMRO you automatically give them the right to be your money collector.
This means that you cannot allow websites such as MySpace, Bebo, Facebook, and downloadmusic.ie to use your music, unless you obtain permission from IMRO or unless IMRO collect royalties from these sites.
Therefore, to allow downloadmusic.ie to continue to promote your music, IMRO must be paid a license fee, because they have exclusive control of the right to make your music available on the Internet.
This means that we have to deduct 8% from every sale you make on downloadmusic.ie, plus 0.0032c for every stream of your music. This money will be paid to IMRO, which they will pay to you, if you meet their criteria for payment.
There appears to be an opt out you can sign that will leave the likes of DownloadMusic.ie contract directly with the artist but I understand from Johnny from DM that it’s not retroactive so IMRO still want their fistful of dollars.
Have they being going after Bebo, mySpace and others or only businesses operating out of Ireland?
The music industry is eating itself. How do you tell between those who are members of IMRO and who are not.
Would this mean that if a band from Limerick asked me to post their new video I would have to say “sorry, we can’t afford IMRO, which we would have to in order to do so.”
So I assume that IMRO-registered artists must pay this even if they put the music up themselves (on their own site or myspace) – or is there a clause to cover that?
one more thing, is there an open list of who is and who isn’t registered with imro?
IMRO artists pay nothing, IMRO collects royalties for Irish artists worldwide, for radio play, TV play (adverts ect), CD sales and for any sales of compilations they’re on ect. It would be impossible for an artist to keep track of all their plays worldwide and collect off each individual radio station or whatever. That’s what IMRO do, that’s what they are there for. Pretty much every artist that has anything out there is registered with IMRO.
But I’d say that the difference between downloadmusic.ie and bebo, myspace is that they are selling peoples music. The artist gets 0.39c for each €1 sale on DM.ie, the rest goes on bank fees and tax apparently, but they do not get paid till their balance is over €50. That’s 129 downloads. I’d safely say most don’t reach that.
As regards the streaming fee that is weird alright I have not see that one before but that could only work if a website had some pay for click advertising with each stream and give the artist a percentage they maybe but that’s not the case here.
I also noticed this new clause in the downloadmusic.ie Terms and Conditions which wasn’t there when I first joined up.
“14. You agree that your material can made made available to Eircom for sale on their music website. ”
I also got this email a while back asking for me to donate a track to Eircom of all people.
“1. You must already be selling a single [i.e. registered] on downloadmusic.ie.
2. You agree that the new single you send to Eircom will be available for FREE as part of their promotion. Previous promotion – http://home.eircom.net/broadband/entertainment/music/. Do not send a single you are currently selling. Send a quality single that represents your material that you don’t mind giving away.”
I declined the offer, I’ll give my away my tracks for free before I give the rights of them them to Eircom for nothing.
I’m all for independent musicians, reaching the people directly, I am one, I run gigs for the artists not profit, I give people gigs, I pay them, I support independent Irish artists, I buy their CDs at gigs.
You’d do a lot better supporting the artists by actually going to see them the next time they play, and buying their EP or album off them. There are so many great independent nights and great independent labels springing up at the moment. The prices to do short runs of proper CD’s have plummeted in the past two years and it’s all to do with people taking control and setting up labels and getting themselves out there. The duplication factories have had to react and make shorter runs of 300-500 available. before the cost was too big to do short runs because of the cost of the glass master. I’m getting quotes of half of what I was getting two years ago for a run of 500, (although not in Ireland)
downloadmusic.ie serves it’s purpose, but it’s not a model that serves the artist, you can only put one track which can then be used by Eircom, whatever they will do with that ?
If you want to get all your mates to buy your 1 MP3 you have up there for one Euro and maybe try and get into the Irish charts for a week then it’s for you.
If my mates want an mp3, I’ll email it to them to them, for free.
If I have a body of work that I think is worth paying for. I’ll set up a website with a paypal link and invest a few hundred in getting 500 printed. I’ll gig with the CDs and sell the downloads and CDs on the site, that’s the way hundreds of artists and bands worldwide are working it at the moment. Nobodys getting rich off it but they’re also not waiting around for their €50 cheque for getting into the Irish Top Thirty because of all their mates text messaging texted the number they sent them.
I do think that streaming fee IMRO hit them with is a bit shitty, it’s a model that could be sustainable, if a bit icky, if adverts were shown with each stream and the artist got a percentage of the pay-per click advert price then everyone is happy, people don’t like adverts though and it’s not a model DM has in place though.
I think downloadmusic.ie was a great idea to begin but their dealings with Eircom have down them no favours whatsoever. Perhaps Eircom will help them out, as they seem to be the only ones winning here.
If you want to support independent music there are much better ways however.
Registered artists probably have to complete official paperwork releasing their songs for promotion purposes for use on Bebo, MySpace etc.
Frankly I’m not surprised by this move. It’s IMRO doing what it’s meant to and surely DownloadMusic.ie expected a backlash as inevitable. However it’s still quite a modest venture and ultimately beneficial to Irish music and so I hope this matter is one that’s resolved with mutual respect on both sides rather than strongarm tactics. If there is a clause for DM.ie to distribute royalties independently then the choice lies with the original musicians. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.
Hi,
I’d like to clarify some of the points made by Gar in a previous comment.
~~~~
“But I’d say that the difference between downloadmusic.ie and bebo, myspace is that they are selling peoples music. The artist gets 0.39c for each €1 sale on DM.ie, the rest goes on bank fees and tax apparently, but they do not get paid till their balance is over €50. That’s 129 downloads. I’d safely say most don’t reach that.”
~~~~
Sales have nothing to do with it. The right assigned to IMRO is the ‘Making Available’ right. If we were just playing music and allowing people download it, IMRO would still want a license fee. They don’t go after Myspace, because they are in a different jurisdiction. IMRO’s US partner ASCAP don’t go after Myspace because Myspace is owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp international. Nobody goes after News Corp.
Artists get between 35c and 40c for sales on dm.ie. The rest of the €1 goes to the mobile phone company who handles the SMS message. In the case of credit cards sales, the rest goes to Realex and Evalon, who charge minimum fees for online and merchant account transactions. All of this info is available from either http://www.essendex.com, http://www.realex.com, http://www.evalon.com, or from our terms and conditions. Less than 1c of the money goes on VAT.
Artists can request payment for sales from downloadmusic.ie at any time. We request artists to seek payment when they have €50 for sales. To date, we have paid out over €6,000 in sales revenues to artists.
~~~~
“I also noticed this new clause in the downloadmusic.ie Terms and Conditions which wasn’t there when I first joined up.
14. You agree that your material can made made available to Eircom for sale on their music website. â€
~~~~
We make no secret of the fact that we intend to sell music on eircom’s music store. All of the money received again goes back to the artist.
~~~~
“downloadmusic.ie serves it’s purpose, but it’s not a model that serves the artist, you can only put one track which can then be used by Eircom, whatever they will do with that ?
If you want to get all your mates to buy your 1 MP3 you have up there for one Euro and maybe try and get into the Irish charts for a week then it’s for you.”
~~~~
You can sell as many tracks as you like on downloadmusic.ie. You can also sell physical CDs, merchandise, concert tickets, your old socks etc. The only things we don’t allow artists to sell are guns, drugs and other nasty stuff. The only way that eircom uses the music is in a player and in their store, under license from the artist.
~~~~
If I have a body of work that I think is worth paying for. I’ll set up a website with a paypal link and invest a few hundred in getting 500 printed.
~~~~
IMRO ‘s terms actually prevent you from doing this, although they probably wouldn’t follow it up.
thx
Garreth
downloadmusic.ie
In response to Nay:
“It’s IMRO doing what it’s meant to and surely DownloadMusic.ie expected a backlash as inevitable.”
We didn’t expect a backlash. IMRO don’t make their member agreement available online, and currently all their web page about online licensing says:
“This page is currently being updated”.
Its been that way for months.
Furthermore, IMRO don’t send out definitions of the rights that artists assign in their member pack. They just refer to the ‘Performing Right’ and tell you to go off and look up the definition in their Articles of Association, which we had to ask them for a copy of.
In contract, PRS in the UK publish *everything* on their website, and include all definitions in what they send to members. PRS also do internet licensing very differently, in that they only require the assignment of a *non-exclusive* right for internet usage, which means artists are free to do what they want with their music on the Internet.
We thought the situation was similar with IMRO, but we’ve now found out that it isn’t.
You can also see the artists’ views at http://url.ie/c0x.
By backlash I mean that DM.ie must have known IMRO would come looking for royalties.
I’m not surprised that there are no clear outlines or comprehensive explanations of T&Cs. This is is Ireland, first to export software, last to update webpages….
Come on guys, lets be real about this. You have been actively encouraging downloadmusic.ie members to submit IRSC codes so they are eligible for the Irish charts from the beginning. You’ve set yourselves up as an “Authorised Digital Music Service” (your words, not mine). In full knowledge that most artists with IRSC codes will also be registered with IMRO. You have to have seen this coming.
You can’t expect to be authorised with the body who compiles the charts and not authorised with a the body who collects the royalties for artists.
I do think it’s a shitty situation and I hope it ends well for you guys. I’m sure it will, you owe nothing to IMRO, IMRO collects on behalf of the artists. So it’s the artists you essentially owe. I think everyone would waive their rights in this situation.
It’s my opinion that dm.ie got themselves into this by claiming to be an authorised digital music service, the corporate linkup probably didn’t help, if it was an independent service for the artists then I doubt they would have gotten into trouble.
Your break down is on your terms an conditions you say the rest (59c) goes to http://www.essendex.com, http://www.realex.com, http://www.evalon.com ect and taxes.
Also asking emerging artists to give the rights of a track to the biggest telecoms company in the country for nothing was well out of order and with that action, dm.ie went down a lot in my book. If it was for an independent dm.ie compilation then it would have fair enough by me but that was well out of order.
What if Eircom uses one of those tracks in a high profile advertising campaign what would the artist get ? Nothing that’s what. Unless they had the track registered with IMRO of course, if they had then IMRO would be able to pick up a token.
As for me selling my own music, I have no problem paying myself royalties at all. I have tracks on iTunes, online shops selling physical media and downloads in many countries that sell. I’m registered and will continue to be registered with IMRO for this reason.
Look IMRO are not the RIAA, DM.ie trying to set artists against IMRO is a bad standpoint, it’s the best way to have your music protected from exploitation in Ireland. Giving the rights of your music away to Eircom for nothing however is not the best option.
The new model for distribution of music lies with the artists themselves and independent labels, not a corporate tie-in music download service. The corporate companies with nothing to do with music trying to get a slice doesn’t sit well with me. Groups who help independent artists get exploited my corporates don’t sit well with me either.
IMRO are not the only big bad wolf in this story, that’s all I’m saying, despite what DM.ie may want you to believe.
[…] the debates on DownloadMusic.ie and Damien Mulley blogs. It’s interesting to read the responses from musicians regarding their rights to stream […]
In response to Gar:
“Come on guys, lets be real about this. You have been actively encouraging downloadmusic.ie members to submit IRSC codes so they are eligible for the Irish charts from the beginning. You’ve set yourselves up as an “Authorised Digital Music Service†(your words, not mine). In full knowledge that most artists with IRSC codes will also be registered with IMRO. You have to have seen this coming.”
IRSC codes have nothing to do with IMRO. They are issued by IFPI (http://www.ifpi.org/content/section_resources/isrc.html) for the purpose of providing systematic identification of music.
“You can’t expect to be authorised with the body who compiles the charts and not authorised with a the body who collects the royalties for artists.”
There is no link between IFPI and IMRO. IFPI’s members are primarily record companies, not licence collection bodies.
http://www.ifpi.org/content/section_links/member_sites.html
“It’s my opinion that dm.ie got themselves into this by claiming to be an authorised digital music service, the corporate linkup probably didn’t help, if it was an independent service for the artists then I doubt they would have gotten
into trouble.”
We’ve already pointed out that we have never made any secret of our dealings with eircom, and yes, IMRO would have sought license fees from us, regardless of who else we deal with, because rights that they control are being used on our site.
“Also asking emerging artists to give the rights of a track to the biggest telecoms company in the country for nothing was well out of order and with that action, dm.ie went down a lot in my book. If it was for an independent dm.ie compilation then it would have fair enough by me but that was well out of order.”
We do not ask anyone to give any rights to anyone for nothing. If a track is sold through DX3 on eircoms website, we pay the artist all proceeds we receive.
“What if Eircom uses one of those tracks in a high profile advertising campaign what would the artist get ? Nothing that’s what. Unless they had the track registered with IMRO of course, if they had then IMRO would be able to pick up a token.”
eircom are not permitted to do this.
“As for me selling my own music, I have no problem paying myself royalties at all. I have tracks on iTunes, online shops selling physical media and downloads in many countries that sell. I’m registered and will continue to be registered with IMRO for this reason.”
If you want to email us, we’ll send you the solicitors letter than outlines the way in which you are in breach of your IMRO agreement by paying yourself royalties.
“Look IMRO are not the RIAA, DM.ie trying to set artists against IMRO is a bad standpoint, it’s the best way to have your music protected from exploitation in Ireland. Giving the rights of your music away to Eircom for nothing however is not the best option.”
We are not trying to set artists against IMRO. We are pointing out to artists that we have to deduct fees from their revenue because IMRO controls their right to make music available on the Internet.
“The new model for distribution of music lies with the artists themselves and independent labels, not a corporate tie-in music download service.”
It doesn’t for as long as artist are required to assign exclusive rights to their music to IMRO.
“Groups who help independent artists get exploited my corporates don’t sit well with me either.”
Can you explain in what way artists are being exploited by corporates?
“IMRO are not the only big bad wolf in this story, that’s all I’m saying, despite what DM.ie may want you to believe.”
dm.ie have never described IMRO as the big bad wolf. We fully acknowledge their role in the music industry. They just need to update their agreement to recognise the potential of the Internet, as PRS-MCPS did several years ago in the UK.
State is required to apply for an LOEL licence despite the fact that we are not selling any music merely providing promotional MP3s passed on to us by artists, labels and PR.
“The MCPS-IMRO Limited Online Exploitation Licence (LOEL) covers the use of music online by small-scale/non-commercial companies and individuals, providing services in Ireland, whose gross revenue is less then €4,000 per year.”
It’s quite a confusing system but for the sake of a few hundred quid and a lot of bother, worth it in our case.
“The MCPS-IMRO Limited Online Exploitation Licence (LOEL) covers the use of music online by small-scale/non-commercial companies and individuals, providing services in Ireland, whose gross revenue is less then €4,000 per year.â€
Does downloadmusic.ie not qualify for such a licence ?
If so why have they not applied for such a licence ?
dm.ie doesn’t fall within the remit of the Limited Online Exploitation Licence because our Gross Revenue (note the word revenue, not profit) exceeds €4,000 per annum.
Even if we did, you still have to pay for the LOEL, so we’d still have to deduct fees from sales made by artists.
IRSC codes have nothing to do with IMRO. They are issued by IFPI (http://www.ifpi.org/content/section_resources/isrc.html) for the purpose of providing systematic identification of music.
There is no link between IFPI and IMRO. IFPI’s members are primarily record companies, not licence collection bodies.
http://www.ifpi.org/content/section_links/member_sites.html
>I know who issue the codes, there’s no link but you can’t expect to be calling yourself >an “Authorised Digital Download Service” while not dealing with all the bodies which >govern the industry in Ireland
“It’s my opinion that dm.ie got themselves into this by claiming to be an authorised digital music service, the corporate linkup probably didn’t help, if it was an independent service for the artists then I doubt they would have gotten
into trouble.â€
We’ve already pointed out that we have never made any secret of our dealings with eircom, and yes, IMRO would have sought license fees from us, regardless of who else we deal with, because rights that they control are being used on our site.
> A lot of cpu.ie artists tracks were also covered by IMRO rights. IMRO never asked a >penny from them. That was a community service however. Downloads were free.
>I believe downloadmusic.ie have been in a lot of “text this number to to *whatever* to >get *whoever* to number one campaigns” for some god awful tv shows I’d rather not
> mention. If you’re attracting that kind of mainstream attention, people notice. You have >to have your ship in order long before you start stuff like that.
___________________________
“As for me selling my own music, I have no problem paying myself royalties at all. I have tracks on iTunes, online shops selling physical media and downloads in many countries that sell. I’m registered and will continue to be registered with IMRO for this reason.â€
If you want to email us, we’ll send you the solicitors letter than outlines the way in which you are in breach of your IMRO agreement by paying yourself royalties.
> I am not in breach of my IMRO agreement, the tracks are being sold by a record >company. Any plays I get are collected by IMRO which are given back to me if my >tracks has been submitted to them. Any sales revenue is between my record company >and me. I was just letting you know how independent artists all over the world promote >themselves.
_________________________________
“What if Eircom uses one of those tracks in a high profile advertising campaign what would the artist get ? Nothing that’s what.
Unless they had the track registered with IMRO of course, if they had then IMRO would be able to pick up a token.â€
eircom are not permitted to do this.
> The terms and conditions say the are allowed to use the track. It offers no protection for the artist.
_______________________________________
“Also asking emerging artists to give the rights of a track to the biggest telecoms company in the country for nothing was well out of order and with that action, dm.ie went down a lot in my book. If it was for an independent dm.ie compilation then it would have fair enough by me but that was well out of order.â€
We do not ask anyone to give any rights to anyone for nothing. If a track is sold through DX3 on eircoms website, we pay the artist all proceeds we receive.
“Groups who help independent artists get exploited my corporates don’t sit well with me either.â€
Can you explain in what way artists are being exploited by corporates?”
> I for one and I assume every downloadmusic.ie artist recieved an email from >downloadmusic.ie asking me to donate a track to Eircom,
>”2. You agree that the new single you send to Eircom will be available for FREE as part >of their promotion.”
>”Do not send a single you are currently selling. Send a quality single that represents >your material that you don’t mind giving away.”
>I didn’t opt in but I was disgusted to be asked, again if it was for a promotion compilation >album then it would have been a lot more tasteful, I really I liked the idea of the USB key, >for instance.
_________________________________________________
>Look I do hope this gets sorted out for ye and I’m sure it will, but there’s a lot more going >on in independent music in Ireland than downloadmusic.ie and IMRO provide an integral >part of royalty collection for those artists which wouldn’t be possible without them, yes >they should get in line with other groups on the streaming situation but encouraging >artists to break ties with IMRO because of downloadmusic.ie, bebo or myspace >streams is not really on.
>IMO IMRO should not be persuing streams as a source revenue for artists, it’s pitance, >not worth it. If I were you I’d look into niallers suggestion.
“I know who issue the codes, there’s no link but you can’t expect to be calling yourself >an “Authorised Digital Download Service†while not dealing with all the bodies which >govern the industry in Ireland”
IMRO do not ‘govern the industry in Ireland’. They are a license collection agency. Anyone can set up a license collection agency as long as they register with the Office for Patents.
“A lot of cpu.ie artists tracks were also covered by IMRO rights. IMRO never asked a >penny from them. That was a community service however. Downloads were free.”
Did cpu.ie pay license fees to IMRO?
“believe downloadmusic.ie have been in a lot of “text this number to to *whatever* to >get *whoever* to number one campaigns†for some god awful tv shows I’d rather not mention. If you’re attracting that kind of mainstream attention, people notice. You have >to have your ship in order long before you start stuff like that.”
dm.ie have never run any campaigns and have never had an association with any television show. We provide an SMS payment service because a lot of people who use our site don’t have credit cards.
Furthermore, only 1 download per user per day is counted in the IRMA chart. Purchases that are not downloaded are not counted, so there isn’t any point in running an SMS campaign for the purposes of getting into the chart.
“The terms and conditions say the are allowed to use the track. It offers no protection for the artist.”
No they don’t. They say this:
“You agree that your material can made made available to Eircom for sale on their music website.”
“I for one and I assume every downloadmusic.ie artist recieved an email from downloadmusic.ie asking me to donate a track to Eircom.
I didn’t opt in but I was disgusted to be asked, again if it was for a promotion compilation >album then it would have been a lot more tasteful, I really I liked the idea of the USB key, >for instance.”
Fair enough. I’m still not sure how this amounts to exploitation by corporates.
“Look I do hope this gets sorted out for ye and I’m sure it will, but there’s a lot more going >on in independent music in Ireland than downloadmusic.ie and IMRO provide an integral >part of royalty collection for those artists which wouldn’t be possible without them, yes >they should get in line with other groups on the streaming situation but encouraging >artists to break ties with IMRO because of downloadmusic.ie, bebo or myspace >streams is not really on.”
We have never, and never will, encourage artists to break ties with IMRO. For you to suggest that we are, is totally disingenuous.
Not disingenuous at all actually, over on your site I saw artists posting there were genuinely worried about using IMRO at all due to the original post.
The original post was in part scaremongering to highlight your situation, and I do see your point but the references did have the desired effect in instilling doubt and distrust in the minds of you members regarding IMRO and it’s users having their music online. You tired to tell me that I was in breach of my contract also. I do see you’re now doing your best to clear this up and that is welcome.
It is my opinion that free streams should not generate royalties so in my opinion they should and prob will back off on this one. The artists will waive their rights on this one also.
I believe the reason you guys were targeted was prob the fact that
1) You say you are specifically an authorised digital music download site
2) You have corporate backing.
3) Your sales are recognised in the official chart.
I would imagine they would see this as a commercial site and would move to collect revenue. If they didn’t they wouldn’t be doing their jobs.
And I have no quams with downloadmusic or IMRO, but when artists got worried about joining a body that collects their royalties because of something like myspace streams, it did get my goat a bit. Artists have enough trouble finding out about the industry and getting their stuff out there without letting that kind of information get a foothold.
Hope it works out,
“The original post was in part scaremongering to highlight your situation, and I do see your point but the references did have the desired effect in instilling doubt and distrust in the minds of you members regarding IMRO and it’s users having their music online. You tired to tell me that I was in breach of my contract also. I do see you’re now doing your best to clear this up and that is welcome.”
We reject that totally. I don’t know how exactly we could have communicated this information in any other way.
“I believe the reason you guys were targeted was prob the fact that
1) You say you are specifically an authorised digital music download site
2) You have corporate backing.
3) Your sales are recognised in the official chart.”
Your efforts to portray us as some sort of corporate stooge compared to what appears to be your own site, cpu.ie, are fairly transparent.
Firstly, we are an authorised digital site. It is not illegal to use our site, that’s all that means.
Secondly, we do not have corporate backing. We are a company and we sold services to another company. That’s sort of how companies work.
Furthermore, IMRO are also looking for fees from outersounds.ie, who have no dealings with eircom, and would be looking for fees from cpu.ie, if it still operated.
Thirdly, I don’t know what your reference to the Irish chart has to do with anything. IMRO look for fees from Hairdressors, and to the best of my knowledge, Hairdressors don’t have any input into the Irish chart.
Like I say, we don’t appreciate your efforts to position us as some sort of bloodsucking conglomerate because we sold some services to eircom. I’ve been working day and night on dm.ie for 2 years now, and to date, the total amount of income I’ve received personally is less than I’d receive for 1 weeks free lance development work.
You may begrudge me that, but that’s up to you.
Very funny,
I’m not actually Gareth from cpu.ie, I thought you might be actually that’s why I threw it in. I was on cpu however back in the day and noticed it started to stop being maintained around the same time downloadmusic was starting up. Thought there might have been a link. Obviously not then.
Also I was not saying I think that you are a blood sucking conglomerate, I was just saying that IMRO could view downloadmusic.ie as a commercial venture (like a hairdresser) for those reasons, it wasn’t an attack, just maybe an explanation of their actions. OK.
I just don’t like corporate attempts to get into the music industry of that type, eircom music, coke music, nokia trends, artist themed meteor phones. That just my personal preference, as a musician it doesn’t sit well with me and I know I’m not alone in that. I was genuinely disappointed when downloadmusic.ie went that route but as I said it’s just personal preference. Not a slur or an attack so don’t take it that way.